All people are created equal. Right?
So what is the reason why homosexual couples cannot legally marry in California?
It was the result of a ballot amongst voters in the state.
If you depend on polls to guide your vision and direct your wisdom, the general population is often prepared to impede the rights of others, for credulous beliefs of their own.
Just like Joseph Stiglitz described the marketplace, the general population often has imperfect information.
And sometimes when people do have access to information, they are likely not to use it unless it is to confirm their own prejudices.
Related posts:
Alexander E.
2 years ago
It’s simple.
Your couple must go to other places to live where they are ALLOWED to get married. What’s the problem?
This is how America was created actually. People left Europe cause they didn’t like the way they live
So your couple can go to Sweden or other FEW countries to get married.
WHY do majority should bend for tiny minority? It’s democracy – so majority rules! Whether you like it or not.
Dadi
2 years ago
Alexander. Are you saying that America was built on “all people created equal” and “justice for all”…except in the cases of those groups in society which are not agreeable to you?
There is a difference between mob democracy and liberal democracy. But I guess some people are always going to be willing to limit the freedom of those they are afraid of.
Kjartan
2 years ago
The final irony is that the conservative politicians who promoted the proposal are to a large extent closet cases themselves.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
Dadi.
One more time.
America was created by people who didn’t like the way of life in Europe. “Justice for all” BS was created later and not for all as you know (at least not for black people till 1962).
As to “equal” – more exact definition is – “The God created people. Colt made them equal”
As I said your friends are free to believe in anything. But if they like to live IN CALIFORNIA now – they have to follow local rules and traditions. Or change rules/traditions. Or leave. They are free
It’s not a “mob democracy” – it’s life. But when few people dictate to majority their rules – this is “mob” …whatever. Some called it tolerance, some called it diversity, some called it liberal – I don’t give a s**** cause I have my own beliefs that are as good as theirs.
Kjartan
2 years ago
Completely agree with the last speaker. I mean, it makes perfect senese that as soon as a certain idea has more than a 50% following at any given time, all those those who don’t support it should be surpressed or deported. As everyone knows, if you want to live in a sociery EVERYONE must agree on EVERYTHING. Those who don’t agree can just move to a different continent. I hear Antartica is still widely uninhabited…
I mean, should the Khmer Rouge just have sat back and let a bothersome minority oppose being forcefully made peasants? Should the white Australians have allowed some inpure aborigines to live peacefully alongside them? Hell no! Pluralism be damned, down with all minorities!
Alexander E.
2 years ago
Kjartan.
I doubt that white Australians agree to run naked in the bushes and hunt kangaroos with boomerangs. But they let aborigines do it as they wish.
Should I mention equal native Americans and white immigrants that made America?
As I know nobody forcing Dadi’s friends to live separately nor prosecuting them, right? Many people don’t like speed limits on the roads – so should we let them exercise their “right for speed”?
There is no need to agree on everything by everybody. But everybody has to live with what is around. Look at it as a rain. You might not agree with the weather but what can you do?
PS. Dadi’s friends might blow up something in protest (to be heard) – as some “people” do in other parts of the world.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
PS. Obama vs. Hitler.
In Hitler’s Germany “homo” were sent to camps to be “re-programmed” he-he.
In Obama’s USA “homo” make this stupid banners trying to “re-program” Californians.
See the difference?
Dadi
2 years ago
I really don’t understand fully what your point is Alexander E.
Mine is that crowds often express views that aren’t tolerant, socially constructive nor forward thinking.
If you want to go into hysterics then we might say that America was created by people who raped, killed and stole from the native people.
We might also make an argument that many in America have evolved from that violent and barbaric past while others cling onto it like dogma.
Dadi
2 years ago
Alexander E. my last comment was made before I saw your last two comments.
I understand now that a logical argument is not what you are here for. You’re just here to make a mess.
Kjartan
2 years ago
“Many people don’t like speed limits on the roads – so should we let them exercise their “right for speed”?”
Of course imposing a speed limit for traffic safety is perfectly comparable to curtailing human rights of a certain group on some spurious moral ground.
What I’d really like to know is what physical danger does same-sex marriage pose to others? You have to be either mentally challenged or religious -or both- to put in on par to the dangers of speeding to others.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
“So what is the reason why homosexual couples cannot legally marry in California?
It was the result of a ballot amongst voters in the state.”
In fact you, Dadi, answered your question.
This IS the reason – more people believe they can’t.
Because if more people believed they could you would have prised the wisdom of the crowds, right?
PS. People are not created equal. At least not equally smart
And Hitler didn’t believe in the wisdom of crowds – he controlled crowds.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
>”I understand now that a logical argument is not what you are here for. You’re just here to make a mess.”
You are the God of this place, Dadi
>”some spurious moral ground”
Kjartan. All mess in humans history have always been started on “moral grounds”. So how do you know that same-sex marriage is not spurious? Who told you that? BTW what do you think about polygamy? Is it allowed in Iceland?
PS. I’m not religious person whatsoever – I have started studying scientific communism when Dadi was born. But I believe in Santa Claus nevertheless!
Alexander E.
2 years ago
One more thing. Really important.
I understand that Dadi doesn’t believe in crowds (see his posts about “national assembly” and Californian voters).
But what the solution then? Who is the carrier of the wisdom?
Bromley86
2 years ago
What we have at the moment Alexander. Certainly, heading towards your direct democracy would IMO, at the extreme, have those homosexuals jailed/killed/exiled. As you can see, I too have little faith in crowds
.
But you get the political system that you deserve. Over in the UK, we have opposition parties that couldn’t agree on the colour of grass. But that’s because we’ve set up a winner takes all system and because too many of us are influenced by what we read in our daily soft porn & sports papers.
You’ve got the system you’ve got. I don’t know enough about Iceland to say what is wrong and why it is wrong. I do know that cases like that politician who was jailed for theft (not fiddling expenses, it was outright criminal theft by employee) and then sprung from jail when the president was out of town indicate that there is something deeply and troublingly wrong with Icelandic society.
kría09
2 years ago
Dadi is absolutely right about his scepticism. Generally, crowds can be manipulated too easily to have faith in their decisions being wise. Direct democracy is most likely leading to suppression of minority interests.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
Should I tell the name of the “author” of this quote? For sure he knew what he was talking about (contrary to school professors).
2 kría09
)
“democracy” or whatever is always leading to suppression of the interests of someone – as there is no such thing as absolute “freedom”.
Representative democracy is leading to the suppression of all interest except those elected and their friends/relatives. (you can Google “Iceland” for that matter
Alexander E.
2 years ago
>”Certainly, heading towards your direct democracy would IMO, at the extreme, have those homosexuals jailed/killed/exiled. As you can see, I too have little faith in crowds”
I’m sure that in case of “my” direct “democracy” Icelandic crowd won’t say Yes to “jail/kill/exile those homosexuals”. Have you heard about our current Prime Minister, Bromley?
But in the very extreme case they might vote to exile her personally (although not on the grounds of sexuality).
Legal note about polygamy:
*All the 27 countries of the European Union (see special note for the United Kingdom): Illegal.
* Iceland: Illegal according to the Icelandic Act on Marriage No. 31/1993, Art. 11.[61]
And there are hundreds of other believes in the world
PS. Congrats, Bromley. Tony didn’t get the dream job. But some people say he should have gotten it – then EU would collapse sooner
))
Blubber
2 years ago
“Just move” – works brilliantly for millions refugees around the world.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
2 Blubber
?????
If you think this is encoding problem – it is not. Just a “?”
Bromley86
2 years ago
Let’s try this again Alexander. The introduction of your direct democracy in California, which is where our homosexual tolerance conversation is centred, could easily lead to some pretty unpleasant effects.
Now, let’s shift back to Iceland, which is naturally where you want to focus. As you say, homosexuality is less likely to be a problem. But are Icelanders perfectly fairminded? Are they perfectly rational? Might there be something that the herd votes for that they, if they *really* thought it through, wouldn’t. People are too easily swayed and often lack perfect information (whether through unavailability or lack of time/will to process it).
Put another way. We all know, to a greater or lesser degree, something about domestic water supplies. Most know to turn the mains off before playing with it, slightly fewer know where the tap is, most could handle cutting and bending metal, especially with the right tools. Some of us may even know about soldering joins. And yet, most people would call a plumber in because they are more likely to be able to do the job properly. And if they don’t, you get another plumber next time.
The key is for society to make sure that there are enough good plumbers around and that they don’t all try to shaft you. That’s the bit that Icelandic society should be focussing on; breaking the cycle of corruption. Otherwise you may slip even further than 8th place on Transparency International list
.
Blubber
2 years ago
Sarcasm.
I was being sarcastic. The idea that people should just move is not compatible with an idea of long term, sustainable democracy.
Bromley86
2 years ago
Case closed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8369983.stm
Unless we’re saying that only Aryan crowds are wise, which has of course been proved to be very wrong as well.
Alexander E.
2 years ago
2 Blubber
>”sustainable democracy”
What’s that? Eco- or green one?
And do you want to say that there is no democracy in California? Or this is not a “correct” one?
2 Bromley
>”Case closed”
))
very funny to hear about “football riots” in Egypt from a British person
And I didn’t get you plumber story… Was he a gay?
> “But are Icelanders perfectly fairminded?”
No, they are barbarians living in the middle of nowhere. And even worse – they consider polygamy a criminal offense! My muslim friend was not allowed to bring all his four wifes here! Immigration office allowed only one!
And what about my rights!!! Not a single sign in my native language – everything in Icelandic or Engrish. The wind! OMFG! When are Icelanders going to fix this foking wind with snowing rain? Oh – they don’t sell beer 24x7x365! This is violation of Geneva Convention!
So, Bromley, do you think Icelanders should bend for me and other foreigners (around 10% of population btw)? Like you do in the long term democratic Britain…
I personally decided to stay and tolerate wind and beer limitations but they won’t get rid of me (at least without sustainable compensation)…
PS. I have never suggested to try my idea outside Iceland. At least I don’t think people in Britain are ready and capable to exercise their power by themselves. Cheers.
PS-II For those who doesn’t know what we are talking with Bromley about – click my name (as a link).